This question has come up a few times recently; there’s some discussion at Maybe Maimed and at Delving into Deviance, and it’s been making me think about the subject; ironically because I had pretty much written such things off a while back, when I decided that the cultural paradigms that we have regarding kink are so fucked up that I can’t even bring myself to associate with any labels.
Personally, while I think that the short answer is “Yes,” the long answer is that we’re not asking the right questions because we — collectively — have no idea what we’re talking about when we use words like “dominance” and “submission” anymore.
Dishevelled Domina has been interviewing submissive men on a variety of topics (including this one), and she’s posting the results a couple of times a week. It just so happens that my own interview is up now, and I have a little bit to say on that topic.
I don’t have much to say right now, since it’s not even 7 o’clock on a Sunday morning, so I’m just going to leave this here.
The Edge of Vanilla 
Loved the interview!
LikeLike
What a great picture Tom. Both bodies r hot. Both r as males and females should look. (Yeah, yeah, i know, critics r gathering around the corner already)
“…….when we use words like “dominance” and “submission” anymore.” Great observation. Why is it great? Cos i agree with it 95 %. Well, to be precise, 96 %. The other 4%? Don’t include me. I know exactly what they mean. (Oh oh, some people will ask now: “Ayesha, who gave u the right…..bla, bla, bla).
“Are submissive men devalued?” Certainly not by me. I simply love them, cherish them. I even put them on a pedestal. Or hang them from the ceiling. Or………. Anyway i consider them GODS! Gods who do my bidding cos there’s no other way for them, gods who challenge me, gods who manage to get the best and worst out of me, gods i just can’t stand sometimes. Of cors, i’m referring here to the ones who live up to my standards, and who don’t waste time by trying to find out what that is, d/s. They already know. They don’t need definitions, confirmations, or support. They don’t care if others accept them for what they r or not. They don’t need to find out if they’re right or wrong. Cos wrong and right, and everything in between, don’t belong to their world. They just go with what they r, how they feel, and what makes them horny. The rest of them, the victims of childhood, the victims of society, the victims of their libido, the not-understood, the whiners, the complainers, the teachers, the philosophers, the healers, and the blamers, devaluated or not , can take a hike, or go on doing whatever keeps them from being a slave.
Hmmmm, maybe i’ll incorporate this comment in my next funny blog 🙂
What a great picture Tom. I’m going to join them.
LikeLike
Yes, I wish I could find the source for that picture, or perhaps more from that photo set. I traced it back to a defunct Tumblog from a couple of years ago, and haven’t found anything else 😦
Maybe part of the problem is that we’re so anxious to join a club that we label ourselves, and after the label, we adopt those behaviors that we think are consistent with that label.
LikeLike
Tom,
I always think that problems with the exact meaning of words can be solved by a visit to the Oxford English Dictionary.
With the darn thing containing over 600,000 words, it’s no wonder its no longer printed in book form any more. Lots of on-line dictionaries, though.
ptathuk
LikeLike
See, the problem is that that people don’t usually look up a word before they use it. More to the point, people frequently act like Lewis Carroll’s Humpty Dumpty; what they mean is so shaded that it’s difficult to extract what they truly want to express.
Submissive is defined: Ready to conform to the authority or will of others; meekly obedient or passive.
This isn’t really helpful in describing how I feel at times, and I suspect that I’m not the only one with this issue.
LikeLike
“…..we’re so anxious to join a club….”? We? Hmmmm, i’m not anxious to join one Tom. I even avoid to do such thing. As a matter of fact, i hate clubs.
The dictionaries i know, r based on vanilla culture, a culture which has no bonds with the life i’m living. So, i don’t care so much about its labels, descriptions, and definitions. When in need to label or define something related to femdom, or an associated area, i simply create one, and/or alter an existing one, based on how i live and on how i want others to live when they r connected with me. It works u know. Less clutter, no arguing, more time for essentials, and lots of more time for goofing off. Of cors i let (some) people outside of my inner circle share in this as well, so they can ponder my views, embrace them, dump them in a landfill, or even fight them. It’s all fine with me, as long as it’s done in a refined, elegant, witty, and graceful way. And that’s often the problem, lol. Especially when it comes to humor, i found way too many people way too serious, a.k.a. too vanilla. Maybe it’s time for some serious humor then? What is that anyway?
LikeLike
I loved the interview, Tom. Words are important to me, but I’m much more concerned with the meaning they hold for me personally. If I resonate with my definitions, that’s good enough. If someone cares enough to understand me, they will care enough to engage in conversation to figure out what I mean by words.
LikeLike
Steph – I agree with what I think that you mean, but the problem is that it takes time to get to know somebody. Labels and (to some extent) stereotypes are shortcuts that help us get to some general area of understanding; unfortunately, the labels we give ourselves don’t always make sense to others.
Worse, the labels we give ourselves aren’t always accurate. More often, they tend to reflect our idea of what we think others might understand, instead of what we actually intend. And even at that, I believe that what we are trying to express might not even be what we mean because many of our ideas of what we are have already been colored by our previous experiences.
LikeLike
I just had this great idea to enhance my value by bottoming from the top. I told my wife that she is getting no sex this weekend no matter how much she begs. Now, if I can just actually get her to beg, I might be on to something…
LikeLike
Let me know how well that works out for you, okay?
LikeLike
U know what would be a great idea “tcs”? To show some kind of a profile of urself. It could be ur first step to step out of ur devalued corner, and climb up the ladder of recognition and dignity, to finally reach that highly valued status of “TFB”.
Psssst……..i could help u out u know. Just tell me where i can find ur wife, and i’m sure i could convince her to beg u for this weekend’s round of sex. Well, i mean, depending on ur quality as a slave of cors, and how imaginative, creative, passionate, and hot u r when it comes to sex. U r not a dry stick, eh tcs?
LikeLike
So far, so good. She knows what I really meant—a promise that I would expect intercourse, rather than me withholding anything. She said she likes it when I show the initative on abstaining.
LikeLike
Tom, I just saw that you and others on Tumblr are asking “what’s with the shopping carriage?”
http://vanillaedge.tumblr.com/post/5863218592/what-is-with-the-shopping-carriage
Here it is:
She could have had him for free of course, a good looking woman like that. But she insists on paying per kilo. Not because she gives a toss about the devaluation of submissive men. She’s kinky without any qualms, and her style is “buy, play, throw away.” She has a restless heart, as they say.
LikeLike
Well, if this picture isn’t the ultimate proof that there r still dominant women around who deeply value to show their men off, nothing is. U men out there should be carried away by the loving authority of this sexy lady. Yummy! Btw, i wonder how many of u would have the guts to take his place. I mean in public!
LikeLike
@Raposo –
Kinky is not the same as femdom. It’s a nice fetish outfit, and she’s very attractive, but the whole set is just goofy (IMO). At the risk of sounding like Ayesha, it’s vanilla pudding femdom; that is, it simply gives some of the visual trappings without conveying the actual dynamic.
@Ayesah –
Maybe it’s me, but I really think that your comment here applies much more to the picture that I put up with the blog post.
A man scrunched up in a shopping carriage? Seriously?
LikeLike
Tom, maybe you have a traumatic and troubled relationship with trolleys, and that makes it hard to see what’s really going on with that dynamic duo. But aboard HER trolley you will be cured of old vanilla hang-ups.
LikeLike
The picture has found its way to Tumblr, and the devaluation of dominant women continues:
LikeLike
Moderating comments is a sure sign that you have reached an admirable level of maturity, Tommy. Soon you will be telling me to get a haircut and find a steady job.
LikeLike
Ha-ha, it’s only because of the links in my comment, I guess. I’m relieved. Tom is forever young and beautiful. And a responsible citizen too.
LikeLike
Soon you will be telling me to get a haircut and find a steady job.
If the shoe fits…
LikeLike
… then it must be Cinderella!
LikeLike
er “would NOT expect”
LikeLike
Tom,
Loved your interview! A recent conversation I participated in our local community discussed the differences between submissive and bottom. The final conclusions were that “bottom” referred to more the physical / sexual power exchange, while submissive / submission was more a reference to service.
While both have overlap and similarities – when looked at in the Top/bottom : Dominance/submission lens it seemed to make more sense.
Does this apply here?
lsb
LikeLike
While both have overlap and similarities – when looked at in the Top/bottom : Dominance/submission lens it seemed to make more sense.
Absolutely, which is why some of those terms evolved.
But while those terms address certain sexual situations, I think that I would like to see terms that express a situational relationship that doesn’t necessarily have to be sexual in nature; terms that don’t already convey unintended meaning because they are charged with some other connotation.
LikeLike
But when I use the word “service”, I am in no way implying a sexual relationship. We have several members of the community who are “service submissives”. These people receive their kink, through the service to a Dominant. Cleaning the house, washing up, etc are their kink – there is nothing overtly sexual about it.
We have a saying in our community – “submissive does not mean doormat”. Among the leadership and established membership – there is a general agreement that a submissive is exactly what their Dominant wants them to be. I have yet to meet any Dominant that lives 24/7, that wants their submissive to be anything but smart, independent, logical and their property. To them, their submissive is personal assistant, coordinator, scheduler, girl / boy friday – a tool to be utilized to their overall success – first. Then after that, a sex toy, plaything, punching bag, etc.
I know I am generalizing here, but in my experience – those who live 24/7 in the lifestyle have to be more pragmatic about how to go about integrating their kink into their lives – and having to take care of a doormat is generally counter productive.
LikeLike
“……..applies much more to the picture that I put up with the blog post.”? Nah, Raposo’s is much more my style. But then again, would u do in public what’s pictured in urs?
LikeLike
But then again, would u do in public what’s pictured in urs?
With her? Are you kidding me? So fast you head would spin.
Well… that is, if I looked like him. Since I unfortunately look like, well, me, I’m already a little embarrassed to be out in public without a shirt.
So, now I’m curious – what is your style?
LikeLike
Caramba, u still don’t know? And poor my thought u had read a few of my thoughts on this from my Blogger site (shakes head).
But then again, i have more than one eh? And one of them is going to the supermarket to shop for a few hard-bodies and taking people’s breath away by strutting around in extravagant fetish wear.
U really should work on ur body Tom. Otherwise u will never end up in my cart!
LikeLike
Ayesha, every time I think I’ve got you figured out, you surprise me.
Although, after thinking about it, shopping for hardbodied young studs does sound like it would be on your to-do list.
LikeLike
Excellent interview Tom. Too many folks are trying to stuff themselves into pigeon holes and then whinging that they are restrictive. It’s a form of social shorthand and laziness to my mind. If a label of “Domme” makes for a quick recognition of my role in a Wife Led Marriage (yet another nebulous label) then people can place me quickly so I guess I’m guilty of it too for simplicitys sake. All the attendant baggage is where the problem starts. I mean, how can I be a Domme when I dont randomly capitalise (who, Me?) and dont do the nursery run in spiky heels with hub crawling behind on a dog lead. Unimaginatively applying stereo types is for the hard of thinking. Leave em to it I say. I guess it’s only a problem if you are a scene player. Back home in the Celtic household, we know who we are, how we play and it’s no one’s business but ours.
PS Tom? In your wife’s fantasy, I bet you look JUST like him xx
LikeLike
CQ, the internet has helped, but it has also served to foster the spread of what I call the Old Guard/Gorean models. While you’re busy playing at home, the people who influence the media perceptions are busy strutting around in their leather harnesses and debating protocols. What happens in the clubs is what ends up in the movies, tv, and advertising, which are where most people will get their ideas.
I’m beginning to see this more as a marketing issue.
LikeLike
I s’pose. But then, isn’t that true of everything in our Western society? Happy balanced people make crap reality TV and don’t buy shit desparately trying to convey status or assauge the hole caused by their incomplete personalities. If people ONLY listen to the misconceptions without doing some independent thinking then I guess they are hardly going to be swayed by the “dull” realities are they? There are quiet voices of reason out there (I would immodestly class us in that vein) but quite frankly, I am not interested in being poster girl and the lightening rod for all the fuckwits and lunatics – are you?
LikeLike
Pingback: CUPID Stunts! » Blog Archive » A Real Domina?
I will go back and read the comments but now just wanted to say I f*cking LOVE that photo. Yumminess!
LikeLike
I know, isn’t it? I’ve been searching the web for the artist, or for more from that photoset. I can’t believe that I haven’t found anything yet.
LikeLike
I’ll help you, Tommy Gun. Look here:
http://vanillaedge.tumblr.com/post/6753732487
LikeLike